In 'Dying For Sex,' pleasure and grief collide

Michelle Williams in Dying For Sex.

Sarah Shantz / FX

The premise might be a tough sell: a young woman attempts to finally own her sexuality following a terminal diagnosis. In the new show Dying For Sex, Michelle Williams stars as a cancer patient confronting the unsatisfying relationships in her life. The series is also a raunchy sex comedy that suggests it's never too late to insist on your own happiness. And it's got a stellar cast, including Jenny Slate, Rob Delaney, and Sissy Spacek.

Transcript

[UPBEAT MUSIC]

AISHA HARRIS: OK, so the premise might be a tough sell. A young woman attempts to finally own her sexuality following a terminal diagnosis. And sometimes, the new show Dying for Sex is a challenge. It stars Michelle Williams as a cancer patient confronting the unsatisfying relationships in her life, both romantic and familial. But believe it or not, the series is also really freaking funny and horny. It's a raunchy sex comedy that suggests it's never too late to insist on your own happiness. And it's got a stellar cast that includes Jenny Slate, Rob Delaney, and Sissy Spacek. I'm Aisha Harris, and today we're talking about Dying for Sex on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

HARRIS: Joining me today is the host of NPR's It's Been a Minute, Brittany Luse. Welcome back, Brittany.

BRITTANY LUSE: Thank you for having me.

HARRIS: Great to have you. Also with us is writer Kat Chow. Welcome back to you, too, Kat.

KAT CHOW: Thanks for having me.

HARRIS: Thanks to you both for being here. So a quick heads up-- Dying for Sex is sexually explicit, and it also touches on issues related to sexual abuse. And we're going to be talking about that today. In the series, Michelle Williams is Molly, who's diagnosed with stage IV breast cancer. The diagnosis causes her to reevaluate how she wants to spend her remaining time. And she separates from Steve, her inattentive and unaffectionate husband with a savior complex. He's played by Jay Duplass. Molly sets out on a personal journey to enjoy sex for the first time in her life.

[AUDIO PLAYBACK]

MICHELLE WILLIAMS: (as Molly) I actually don't know what I like or what I want. I've never even had an orgasm with another person. And now I'm going to die.

[END PLAYBACK]

HARRIS: The show also follows Molly's best friend Nikki, played by Jenny Slate. Nikki gamely steps in to be her primary caretaker, but this presents its own challenges to their friendship and to Nikki's personal life and career.

[AUDIO PLAYBACK]

JENNY SLATE: (as Nikki) I saw Steve. I got your records from him. And now they're not in my bag.

WILLIAMS: (as Molly) You lost my records?

SLATE: (as Nikki) Well, they were in my bag.

WILLIAMS: (as Molly) Your bag is a black hole. I hate your bag. I've always hated your bag. You need to clean your bag. You need to organize your bag.

SLATE: (as Nikki) [SCOFFS] OK.

[END PLAYBACK]

[LAUGHTER]

HARRIS: Very relatable My bag is also a black hole. Dying for Sex was inspired by the life of Molly Kochan, who shared her experiences on the Wondery podcast of the same name, which was released nearly a year after her death. It's streaming on Hulu now. Brittany, I'm going to start with you. And as I've already kind of suggested, this show, it really, really tries to balance the tragedy and the comedy of this person's life. And I'm curious what you made of this and how you reacted overall to what the show is trying to do.

LUSE: I really enjoyed watching this show. There's so many great performances-- Michelle Williams, of course. Jenny Slate is so good. Rob Delaney is so good. Sissy Spacek is so good. I mean, there's so many phenomenal performances throughout that even if things in the plot were a little convenient or, like, a little tweet, I asked myself a question where I was like, OK, I feel like it's a bit of an exaggeration or a bit of fantasy in the way that it's constructed. In dealing with illness and grief and death, as somebody who's done some caregiving, some of, like, the best gossip sessions [LAUGHS] of my life have happened during those times. You know what I mean?

HARRIS: Right, exactly.

LUSE: I think I thought, if anybody deserves a fantasy, it is this woman or people in her situation that deserve that. Like, why not? You know what I mean? There's so many-- I mean, there's fantastical films about God knows what. I'm like, why can't this woman have all of these, you know, amazing coincidences and conveniences pop up in her life so that she can become, you know, the greatest stage IV cancer dom of all of, you know, Brooklyn? Why not her? Why not her? But also, very true to real life, some of the actual funniest moments of your life can happen when you are looking at very serious illness or death. But yeah, I laughed. I cried. I gasped at times. I thirsted over Rob Delaney. I had a good time.

CHOW: Oh, Rob Delaney, yeah.

HARRIS: The graying chest hair? Wow. [LAUGHS]

CHOW: Yeah, he was good.

HARRIS: Yes, yes. Rob Delaney, actually, he plays Neighbor Guy. I think that's all he's ever called in the show. And he winds up living across from the Molly character. And they have, like, a very fascinating journey together of, like, hating each other, but then turning that hate into lust and something like love. But yeah, Kat, I'd love to hear what you thought about that and so much more.

CHOW: First of all, I, you know, should have gotten a bigger clue from the title, Dying for Sex. And I knew intellectually that this was a show about somebody who is terminally ill. And I should have been more prepared for the ending, which is when Molly, the character, actually dies. And so I was just so moved by that ending. And of course, as the show is progressing, I found myself liking it more and more. But I was really mixed at the jump because I just wanted more. I wanted more of this character development so that I could see the friendship dynamics between Molly and also Nikki, just how messy that is. You know when we're friends with someone for 20 years, things are just so, so layered. And we kind of just got this really finite snapshot of this moment. So in my eyes, I was like, OK, Molly has one family member. That's Sissy Spacek, who is just, like, the most infuriating mom character ever, where you're like, I wanted to pull my hair out in scenes.

HARRIS: A mother with zero boundaries.

CHOW: Zero boundaries, yes. And then also she has her one friend. I just kept thinking, like, what else does she want besides sex? But--

HARRIS: Yeah.

CHOW: --under the, like, tight focus of, you know, there series called Dying for Sex, it makes sense. But I found myself just craving a little more. Like, does she have a career? Is she worried about money?

HARRIS: That was the thing that really struck me, was, like, I don't know if we ever get a hint of what she did.

CHOW: Yeah.

HARRIS: Like, because part of the-- Molly's journey-- and this was apparently true of the real-life Molly as well, who inspired this story-- is that she had previously had cancer, and then this new diagnosis, it's like, it's come back, or, like, a different version has come back now. And so you get the sense that, like, Steve, her husband, was, like, caretaking for her for a while. So, like, she hasn't necessarily had a career for a long time.

CHOW: Right.

HARRIS: But, like, what could that have been before? Or did it exist? And like--

CHOW: Yeah.

LUSE: She had a 401(k) from that time that she lived off of, but (LAUGHING) that's all you find out, yes.

HARRIS: The show, I guess, isn't afraid to, at least, explain a little bit as to how she's able to afford these things. Like, she separates from Steve, but she stays with him legally so that she can stay--

CHOW: For his health insurance.

HARRIS: --for his health insurance. So, like, that is understood. But like, we also have to recognize that, like, so many people who are going through this do not have any of those types of resources. And--

LUSE: Yeah, no.

HARRIS: --they often don't have someone like Sonya, who is the palliative care social worker who's at the hospital where Molly is receiving her care. Sonya is played by Esco Jouley. I will say, overall, I really, really loved this show. I, like you both, like, was laughing. I shed a few tears. Like, I also just loved that real balance between any time there's a sad moment, it's undercut by humor. But also, oftentimes, when it's undercut by humor, then it's undercut by sadness again.

CHOW: Yes. It's just that toggle.

LUSE: Yeah.

HARRIS: It's a toggle. And I think the show, for the most part, handles it really well. And this is a show about exploration of yourself and learning to love yourself. I did struggle with the Sonya character just because they are a Black, queer--

LUSE: Yes.

HARRIS: --character whose main purpose of being there-- yes, it's their job. They are a social worker. This is what they do. But there are times when it bordered on didactic a little bit in terms of, like, what their purpose was, which was to help Molly discover her own sexuality. I thought Sonya and Esco Jouley, who plays Sonya-- great performance.

LUSE: Yeah.

HARRIS: Loved it.

CHOW: Yes, so good.

HARRIS: But I also wanted a little bit more of, like, who Sonya is beyond being, like, a queer, sex-positive, you know, social worker.

LUSE: Right. Yeah, that is something that, also, [LAUGHS] I noticed. I mean, because it also wasn't just that Sonya was, for all intents and purposes, like, almost a death doula, like somebody who was really--

HARRIS: Yes.

CHOW: Always present, yes.

LUSE: --always there. I was thinking, I-- like, in my notes, I had, other patients?

HARRIS: Takes them to a sex party?

LUSE: Yes. When they all went to the sex party, I was like--

CHOW: Yeah.

LUSE: --HIPAA violation?

[LAUGHTER]

LUSE: And then there's a scene where Molly meets Sonya's dom--

CHOW: Robby Hoffman.

LUSE: --played by Robby Hoffman, exactly-- where I was like, oh, my gosh. But yeah, there's, like, a moment where Molly goes to see Sonya's dom, who's played by Robby Hoffman--

HARRIS: G's the character's name, yeah.

LUSE: --goes to see G.

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: Where G and Molly meet up is, like, G works at-- it looks like some type of Crate & Barrel-esque type store.

CHOW: Like West Elm, yeah.

HARRIS: Like a Pottery Barn or something. Yeah, exactly.

LUSE: Yeah. So then they go back to the stockroom, and there just happens to be a mattress back there for them to kind of, like, connect and, you know, for Molly to open up.

CHOW: And it's, like, dimly lit in a good way, not in, like, the gross fluorescent light way.

LUSE: I'm like, I have never been in a stock room that looked like that. Never in all my years of retail did that happen.

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: That was also a moment where I was like, let me just suspend this disbelief. The woman is dying.

HARRIS: Yes.

LUSE: She is dying.

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: I feel like it was well-intended, but-- well, also, another thing I noticed is that the only Black people that the characters interacted with were, for the most part--

HARRIS: In the health care world. Yes, yes.

LUSE: Yeah, they were-- I mean, they were their support staff, basically. You know, I also know what it feels like to have Black characters peppered in, in places where it didn't make sense. So it's not like I needed them to have, like, a Black friend or something like that. But I just was like, did every Black person you needed to interact with be an employee at the hospital or--

HARRIS: Yeah, and that's where I struggled. But I do think the fact that Sonya is, more or less, really integrated into the story, even if their only purpose is as, like, the death doula, it felt a little less egregious than, like, what I usually see.

LUSE: Yeah.

CHOW: Yes.

HARRIS: So, like, I appreciated that. And even if Sonya had to deliver some clunky lines about how Black women tend to get even worse treatment from doctors--

CHOW: Oh.

[LAUGHTER]

HARRIS: --it's like, I'm curious what you both think about-- yes, it's about, like, the sexual misadventures of Molly, but it's also, in other ways, about, like, how you maintain your humanity within the health care system. And--

CHOW: Yeah.

HARRIS: --I'm curious what you thought about that. Because I loved the Dr. Pankowitz character, played by David Rasche--

CHOW: Who's from Succession also.

HARRIS: Karl.

CHOW: Karl.

HARRIS: Yes, long-time character actor. Like, as soon as you see him, you're like, I've seen this guy. But like, Molly has to teach him, like, bedside manner. And I thought, you know, that could have been didactic, but it felt different to me.

CHOW: I'm glad you brought that up, because that was a scene I was thinking a lot about, where it was almost, like, this sweet parallel after Molly learns how to be a dom super quickly from G.

HARRIS: [LAUGHS] Super quickly.

CHOW: And suddenly, it's like, wow, that was the fastest lesson ever. Like, you didn't even have to practice, and suddenly you're just, like, telling Rob Delaney and, like, all these other people to, like-- I don't know-- crawl on the floor. I will say, as, like, a side note, before I actually answer your question, Aisha, I did think that at least the kink stuff was rendered with care, instead of it being a joke, which I think is just, like, very important for me to just say.

HARRIS: Absolutely, yes.

CHOW: So that was nice, to see that represented in a moving way. But I also think that it then served as a nice parallel between how Molly started to take charge more of her own care. Because previously, her husband, Jay Duplass, was just kind of controlling his way through the caretaking and not really giving her the agency that she wanted. And it came from a good place, right?

HARRIS: Yeah.

CHOW: So it was really moving to see her be able to kind of articulate what she wanted.

HARRIS: Yes, yeah. I think that for me, what I really appreciated was just the way Nikki, the Jenny Slate character-- like, it's very complicated, their relationship, by the fact that, like, now that Molly decides to leave Steve, now it's like, oh, of course I'll be your caretaker. But like, what does that mean? And I think the show does a really good job of putting that into context as well. We should say that on top of everything that's happening with Molly, she is also dealing with trauma from her childhood, having been sexually abused by her mother's boyfriend when she was around seven years old. And that comes up throughout the show. And on top of Nikki having to take care of all of her medical needs, you start to see Molly kind of putting all of the trauma onto Nikki. There's a really, like, kind of heartbreaking scene where Molly is finally describing, for the first time, in detail, to Nikki, like, what happened to her. And Nikki suggests, like, I'm really glad you were able to share that, but like, maybe you should talk to a professional.

CHOW: Yes.

HARRIS: And Molly responds, like, no, I can do it. I have you. And the look on Nikki's face--

LUSE: Mm-hmm.

HARRIS: --to me, that was, like, one of the strongest moments of this show because it really kind of put into context, like, what Nikki is dealing with. I mean, Nikki's life kind of falls apart as she's caring for her. And I think the show of juggles a lot of tones, and I think it also juggles complexities around, like, what that means, because by the time it ends, like, that is also kind of conveniently, in many ways, tied up as well. Like, her life-- Nikki's life kind of surprisingly comes back together.

CHOW: She loses her job.

HARRIS: Her boyfriend.

LUSE: Oh, Kelvin Yu also, so darling in this. [LAUGHS]

HARRIS: Yes, yes. We've seen many stories about people who are experiencing, you know, terminal illness. We don't often see, in so much detail, what it's like for the caregivers. And I have not been a caregiver myself, but I have seen family members be caregivers. And at least from my sort of limited scope of things, it felt like a very real encapsulation of, like, what that emotional weight and toll-- and financial, frankly, because again, Nikki loses her job.

CHOW: Yeah.

HARRIS: Like--

CHOW: Yeah. I mean, it is a job, caretaking like that, right?

HARRIS: Yeah.

CHOW: And that's a job that Nikki didn't necessarily agree to. And there's this just really powerful scene where Molly and Nikki are talking, and Molly turns to Nikki and says--

[AUDIO PLAYBACK]

WILLIAMS: (as Molly) I told him I don't want to die with him.

SLATE: (as Nikki) Oh, [BLEEP]. [CHUCKLING AWKWARDLY] OK.

WILLIAMS: (as Molly) I want to die with you.

[END PLAYBACK]

CHOW: That part also took my breath away because-- I don't know-- if I were on the receiving end of that, I would feel so heartbroken if I were Nikki, but then, also, weirdly honored, but then scared, just afraid.

LUSE: Yeah, I mean, I'm so glad you used the word "honored" because that is one of the things that I felt caring for a sick friend a few years back, and also that I feel like comes through so clearly in Nikki's character. For all the ways in which, like, her life does fall apart, she still ultimately feels so honored to be able to be there for Molly at the end of her life. And there's a really beautiful moment between Nikki and her boyfriend, on-and-off boyfriend Noah, where she's talking about how she didn't realize that you could love a person that much until going through this with Molly. And Noah says, like, oh, that's how basically he felt when his daughter was born. Nikki kind of says, you know, I know I'm not going to be there for the beginning of someone's life, but I can be there at the end of someone's life. And what family looks like is changing so much for people more and more with every generation, with every passing decade. It's not so conventional. It's not so cookie cutter. It's not like, you know-- and also, too, when you look at the statistics of who cares for women when they get to the end of their lives, or who cares for women when they are looking down a cancer diagnosis or a terminal illness, and their husbands are, like, six times more likely to leave them when they receive a cancer diagnosis.

CHOW: Yeah. Yeah.

HARRIS: Right.

LUSE: I'm not saying that's what happened with the husband character in this series-- quite the opposite. And I like the way they treated his character. He wasn't, like, all bad. Like, you kind of saw where he was coming from sometimes, but you're kind of like, ugh.

CHOW: I can't be too mad at you. You mean so well.

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: Yeah.

CHOW: Ugh.

HARRIS: He wasn't too bad, but he also still, like, never was fully redeemed. Like, when he brings his new girlfriend--

CHOW: Oh.

HARRIS: --to visit Molly in the hospital while she's getting chemo. Why do you think she would want to see that?

LUSE: Right!

CHOW: I know.

HARRIS: Right. Like--

CHOW: But then she does kind of, quote unquote, like, "win" that situation when her lover comes, and he's, like, in a pup costume.

HARRIS: Who's into acting like a dog for sexual-- like, yes, that was quite funny.

LUSE: Being there for the end of someone's life, it is just as valuable as being there for the beginning of someone's life.

CHOW: Yeah.

LUSE: I think that there are a lot of women who do a lot of work like that for their family members and for their friends. And it doesn't get the same value in society. And I thought that was really interesting.

CHOW: I love that point that you make. And it just made me think, too, you know, when you were saying, the way families are shaped now is just changing, I thought about how friendship can be so romantic, too, in so many ways. And I think that this is one of the shows that illustrates that pretty well. I loved that, thinking about how your friend can actually just be your partner.

HARRIS: Yeah. And I think it's so notable that the neighbor guy, Rob Delaney character, they have a moment. It blossoms into something that becomes more than just, you know, sex and lust. But at the same time, she's like-- she said something along the lines of, like, I don't want to die with you. I want to, like, get a dog with you. But, like, that's her way of saying, like, I still want Nikki to be there for my last moments. And there is a romantic element, but it doesn't end in the way that you might-- like, the usual narrative might do, it's like, oh, of course, like, she's moved on to a new man. And this is, like-- this is the truthful film. And it's like--

CHOW: He's going to propose to her on her deathbed.

LUSE: Yeah.

HARRIS: Right, exactly. No, that's not what happened. Like, he served-- like, I mean, the crude way of saying it is, like, he served his purpose, and she's like, OK, I'm done with you now. But also, it's like, you brought purpose to my life. I appreciate you. Everything is for a season. And I thought it was just a really lovely moment that they had. And the fact that he doesn't appear in the final episode, it's like, this is interesting.

CHOW: Yeah, I kind of liked that in the end, it was just Nikki, Molly, and Molly's mom, that it was just these trio of women. And they were kind of just doing their own thing and quietly sitting with their own grief.

HARRIS: Yeah.

CHOW: I also thought that Michelle Williams's acting in that last episode was just so beautiful.

HARRIS: Yeah.

CHOW: The way she portrayed someone who is actually about to die, I was like, this is just so carefully rendered. It was so heartfelt.

HARRIS: This is really a show that, for all its, like, suspension of disbelief that you might have to do, I think that overall, it's really well-conceived, and the performances are what put it over the top. And that is what makes it-- you stick around. And Michelle Williams, like, she's always great. I think this could be one of her best performances that I have seen of hers.

LUSE: Agreed.

HARRIS: And I've always loved Jenny Slate. And this just felt like a new thing for her in, like, the best way possible.

LUSE: Oh, my god. I wrote, Oscar. Like, one day, Oscar someday? Like--

CHOW: She gave a lot of good comedic relief.

LUSE: One last thing I will say that I want to make sure that I mention that also really stuck out to me is there is in, I believe, the seventh episode, is, like, an extended series of scenes that involve sex taking place in a hospital bed, while Molly is, like, in her gown and has, like, the nasal-- is receiving nasal oxygen. One of the things that-- where, like, society is lagging in the way that it thinks about people who are, like, ill and disabled is their sexuality and their sexual agency.

CHOW: Yes.

LUSE: Like, she was able to be in the context of illness very visibly--

HARRIS: Yeah.

LUSE: --and still be desired. And I thought that that was really, really important.

HARRIS: And to that point, I think one thing we haven't even mentioned either is the fact that this show, it's a very sex-positive show that also is-- basically, it's advocating that, like, there are other ways besides penetrative sex to find pleasure.

[AUDIO PLAYBACK]

SPEAKER: Sex. Sex is a wave. You know, sex-- sex is a mindset.

[END PLAYBACK]

HARRIS: Largely in part because she's getting all these surgeries, she can't do the things that a lot of people can do. And so she is finding her way to be fulfilled without the, quote unquote, "normal," hetero way of doing things. And I really appreciated that, like--

CHOW: 100%.

HARRIS: --that is part of her journey, is not just, like, the vanilla way, as G calls it.

LUSE: [LAUGHS]

CHOW: Yeah, I think that was one of the first times I saw that portrayed. And so I really also just appreciated each partner she had. She learned something new. I mean, she was miraculously really great at being a dom naturally. I could have watched more episodes of her, you know, struggling and kind of trying to figure it out, but--

HARRIS: Well, it sounds like we all absolutely recommend the show if-- you know, it's a lot, but you've got some great performances, and you've got, you know, a lot of really beautiful, lovely moments. So definitely let us know what you think about Dying for Sex. Find us at facebook.com/pchh. And that brings us to the end of our show. Kat Chow and Brittany Luse, this was such an enlightening conversation. I really appreciate it. Thanks for being here.

LUSE: Thank you.

CHOW: Thank you.

HARRIS: This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathima and Liz Metzger and edited by Mike Katzif. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy. And Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all tomorrow.

[THEME MUSIC] Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.