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S10 E2: Transcript - Segregated Sacramento

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Catherine Stifter From Capital Public Radio, this is The View From Here podcast.


Catherine Stifter Welcome to our new series Place And Privilege, exploring housing affordability in California's capitol.

I’m Catherine Stifter, producer of The View From Here and last year as we began our research, I asked the reporting team to go find stories that would help us 1) define Sacramento’s affordable housing crisis and 2) answer the question: How did we get here?

--Where 62,000 of our neighbors can’t afford safe and adequate housing.

--Where a whole generation of millennials may never be able to buy their own homes.

--Where historic housing policies favored some of Sacramento’s residents, and excluded others.

--And where current state and local housing policies are not making things better fast enough for those in real need.

In the coming weeks, we’ll take you on a deep dive into the history, politics and economics of affordable housing in Sacramento. The short story is that it’s really complicated. We’ll be talking to developers and city planners, housing advocates, historians and attorneys. Professors, property managers, renters, homeowners and people with no homes

To understand how we got here, Reporter Cosmo Garvin suggests we start with a history lesson. This is Place and Privilege, Episode 2, Segregated Sacramento.


Cosmo Garvin When I found out that I was going to be working on this radio project about affordable housing in Sacramento, I knew who I wanted to talk to.

Jesus Hernandez I’m Jesus Hernandez and I do research on housing patterns in Sacramento… My research focuses on understanding the connection between economic market activity in the region and the patterns of racial segregation that we have.

Cosmo Garvin Jesus teaches sociology at UC Davis, and we’ve talked many times over the years about how government policies affect Sacramento’s poor neighborhoods, and what kinds of policies would better help the people who live there.

Cosmo Garvin I first met him when I learned about work he was doing to promote economic development in the south Sacramento neighborhood around Franklin Boulevard.

Cosmo Garvin He grew up in Sacramento’s Oak Park neighborhood, he’s been a real estate agent, he’s especially knowledgeable about the history of residential segregation in Sacramento. That’s what he wrote about for his doctoral dissertation.

Cosmo Garvin I knew I wanted to explore the issue of residential segregation, and so I asked Jesus to point me to some examples.

Cosmo Garvin “I know just the place,” he said. He emailed me an address. And we met there a few weeks ago.

Jesus Hernandez So what we have here is on the back side of Seavey Circle in the housing projects that started back in the early 40s. We're standing between a wall that separates the complex and the Land Park neighborhood… that blocks off a road that was designed to have access to both of these places. From the neighborhood into the housing project and back and forth. But what we have here is an eight foot gate that separates them. That puts a border between these neighborhoods.

Cosmo Garvin The border is 4th Avenue between Sacramento’s Land Park neighborhood, and a public housing project called Marina Vista. That’s the new name the Sacramento Housing Authority gave it a few years ago. Jesus still calls it by the old name, Seavey Circle. Apart from being walled off, the modest single family homes of Marina Vista don’t look all that different from some of the homes in this part of Land Park--they’re a little smaller, more uniform in style and closer together. On the other side of Marina Vista, on the North side, is an older housing project, called New Helvetia--now Alder Grove--with its recognizable brick barracks style buildings that you’ve seen if you’ve driven on end of Broadway.

The wall and gate make for an abrupt division between the public housing, and the considerably more affluent Land Park neighborhood.


Jesus Hernandez And these things are so old you can see the rust on the chain the corrosion. This is clearly not here for public safety. It's here as a vehicle for exclusion, as a way to exclude one neighborhood from another.

Cosmo Garvin It’s not the only border between these two neighborhoods.

The Sacramento City School district, years ago drew a line neatly carving out school attendance areas to separate the public housing kids from the Land Park kids. On our side of the gate, the Land Park side, students go to Crocker Riverside Elementary school about a mile south of here. Crocker is widely considered one the district’s ‘best” schools, because of its high test scores. Demographically, families that attend Crocker tend to be whiter and wealthier than the district average.

On the other side of the fence, kids go to Leataata Floyd elementary, which has consistently had some of the district’s lowest test scores. Floyd school has much higher poverty rates, it’s less white.

Draw the attendance boundary another way, the schools would be more integrated, the populations would be more similar. But the line is where it is. Same place as the gate.

The gate is an unusually unsubtle reminder of Sacramento’s history of racial and economic segregation, which persists all over the region to this day, and which Hernandez says shapes people’s lives, depending on where they live.

Jesus Hernandez So basically what you have is an X. A east to west pattern of public investment and a north-south pattern of disinvestment. And this by this X, by this racial geography you can measure every social ill in our city today. Poverty, crime, educational attainment, employment, health care. Think of any social good that you can measure and you can measure it by this north-south geography in our county.

Cosmo Garvin So that’s what I want to talk about in this episode. The story of Sacramento’s racial geography. How did Sacramento’s patterns of racial and economic segregation come to be? Why do people live where they do? Is it just personal preferences, and market forces at work? Or is something else going on?


Cosmo Garvin You rarely hear a Sacramento elected official say the word segregation. It’s an ugly word. It seems like something from a bygone time.

But segregation obviously exists. In every city there are heavily white and non-white neighborhoods, rich neighborhoods, poor neighborhoods. The census bureau recognizes, several “racially concentrated areas of poverty,“ here in Sacramento. If you live in Sacramento, you probably have a good sense of where they are, they are in North Sacramento and South Sacramento.

And this is a problem. Zip code matters, too much. There’s a lot of evidence that where you live is going to affect the opportunities that you have, and going to affect all sorts of outcomes later in life, your income, your health, your marriage.

And for Sacramento to grapple with segregation to it may help to understand where it came from.

Every city has it’s own history, and Sacramento’s is unique. But in many ways Sacramento was shaped by forces that were at work in cities all over the country.

And they were especially shaped by government policy, Richard Rothstein, a researcher with the Economic Policy Institute. In his new book, “The Color of Law, A Forgotten History of how our Government Segregated America” Rothstein says American cities were deliberately segregated by a set of government policies that, even though they aren’t on the books today, are still undermining African American families and other people of color

Richard Rothstein Many federal, state and local policies that created residential segregation. But I think the two most important were first, the civilian public housing program which was begun in the New Deal to address a housing shortage primarily for white middle class lower middle class families who had lost their homes in the Depression. And the federal government beginning with the Public Works Administration created segregated public housing projects, separate projects for whites and blacks. Most were for whites, fewer for blacks in cities across the country frequently creating segregation which had never known where, in cities which had never known segregation before.

Cosmo Garvin And so it was in Sacramento. The neighboring public housing project to Seavey Circle--called New Helvetia (or, more recently Alder Grove)--was originally segregated when it was built in 1941. It wasn’t until 1952 that a young African American lawyer named Nathaniel Colley filed a complaint in Sacramento Superior Court to stop segregation in New Helvetia and another complex. Colley noted that of the 310 apartments in the New Helvetia complex, only 16 were available to black families. And those were in 2 buildings set aside for African Americans. The court issued an injunction against separate housing, and the Housing Authority eventually agreed to end the practice. Colley went on to become a legendary fighter for fair housing.

Richard Rothstein In other cities, neighborhoods were demolished integrated neighborhoods and public housing was built for white families only. And African-Americans were left to fend for themselves in other tenement districts which they wound up overcrowding. That was the situation in Atlanta. It was the situation in St. Louis. So in many cities this happened. In World War II workers both white and black flocked to centers of defense production to work in plants, manufacturing ships and tanks and jeeps and airplanes. The federal government had to provide housing for these workers because the cities where these plants were located had exploding populations as workers flocked to work in defense plants. And again the federal government created segregation with housing for workers' families in places that had never known it before.

Cosmo Garvin But segregated public housing was just one part of the story.

Richard Rothstein The second policy which was perhaps even more powerful was the Federal Housing Administration, an agency of the federal government that was also formed in the New Deal in 1934. Provided subsidies to builders of mass production developments subs- suburbs. And they provide these subsidies by guaranteeing bank loans for builders to build subdivisions on condition, and this was an explicit federal condition, that no homes be sold to African-Americans.

Richard Rothstein Perhaps the best known of these is Levittown just east of New York City. 1700 homes. The Levitt family could never have assembled the capitol to build 17000 homes for which they had no buyers. The only way they did so was by getting bank guarantees from the federal government, on condition that they sell no homes to African-Americans, and a further condition that they place language in every deed of every home in Levittown prohibiting resale to African-Americans. And this was true everywhere in the country: Perhaps the best known of these is Levittown just east of New York City. 1700 homes. The Levitt family could never have assembled the capitol to build 17000 homes for which they had no buyers. The only way they did so was by getting bank guarantees from the federal government, on condition that they sell no homes to African-Americans, and a further condition that they place language in every deed of every home in Levittown prohibiting resale to African-Americans. And this was true everywhere in the country:

Cosmo Garvin In Sacramento as well. And to see how some of these policies played out here, consider the story of Sacramento’s West End. That story goes back to the beginning of the 20th century.

Cosmo Garvin I met historian William Burg, by a public fountain, outside a government building near 6th and O street in Downtown Sacramento. On the spot of what was once, many decades ago, a vibrant and diverse neighborhood of several thousand people.

William Burg It had evolved from the earlier residential neighborhood near the waterfront roughly the beginning of the 20th century. And it was demolished in the 1950s and 1960s.

Cosmo Garvin Burg has written several books about Sacramento’s historic neighborhoods, and says the West End was remarkable for its diversity, and for its thriving jazz scene. One of the most famous clubs, the Zanzibar, [drew big names like Dizzie Gillespie, County Basie and Duke Ellington][a phrase or two of Duke Ellington song], as well as hosting many local acts. Redevelopment put an end to all that. I asked Burg to tell me about the rise and fall of the West End..

William Burg Well we would be located at approximately where Shiloh Baptist Church was first located or one of its one of its earliest locations. It was the second of two African-American congregations that arrived in Sacramento during the gold rush. It was relocated to Oak Park. But 6th and O Street street was Shiloh's location that they bought and owned and ended up selling in advance of the redevelopment.

William Burg Now Sacramento had an African-American population dating back to the gold rush. It also had a Chinese-American population dating back to the same era. And from around the 1890s forward Japanese population there was a period of around 1920 we didn't have a largest Japantown in the United States but in terms of proportion of Japanese, we were the most Japanese city in the United States. And then from around 1910 or so there always been a small Latino population. California had previously been Mexico. But especially during the period of the Mexican Revolution we had a dramatic increase in Latino population as Mexican immigrants moved north and settled in Sacramento and almost all of them concentrated in the neighborhood around in and around the West End.

Cosmo Garvin Whites lived here as well.

William Burg Ethnic whites especially. That's really one of the one of the factors of 20th century racial formation is groups that originally weren't considered white and were often targets of prejudice themselves: Irish Italians Portuguese Greeks Jewish Eastern Europeans who are considered minorities within the European community but later kind of graduated into a status of whiteness typically about the same time that they moved out into regional suburbs. But they started out here as well. Mostly a little bit further south in the area around Southside what's now Southside Park.

William Burg That's where the Italian and Portuguese neighborhoods were. But we're a couple of blocks from where the original Greek Orthodox Church was, the first the first synagogue in Sacramento's a couple of blocks from here. So this was an extraordinarily diverse and interracial neighborhood.

Cosmo Garvin And it wasn’t just a collection of different ethnic neighborhoods. There was a lot of blending of different groups.

William Burg Block to block, house to house, and apartment to apartment. If you look at old city guides you can really see this is an extraordinarily diverse neighborhood at a very granular level.

William Burg You look at apartment listing and there is a Silva and there's a Martinez and there's a Fong and there's a Yee and and so you have an extraordinarily mixed neighborhood.

Cosmo Garvin Outside of the West End, however, new neighborhoods were off limits to non-whites.

William Burg Roughly the late 1910 to 1920s there was kind of an upsurge in American racism. This was the era Birth of a Nation and a lot of what we think of as Jim Crow laws, segregation laws and a lot of interest in, in what's called eugenics.

William Burg And so a lot of things like racial exclusion covenants really came into use at this point essentially the idea is that you couldn't buy property in these new subdivisions if you weren't white. Many of them also you couldn't buy property if you weren't Protestant. Again we're just talking about Irish German or Irish and Italians and Portuguese and other ethnic Europeans as they were originally locked out of many of these covenanted neighborhoods.

William Burg And those are primarily outside of the central city. Any place that had been laid out prior to about 1910, 1915. So Oak Park, some of the northern parts of what's now Land Park they didn't have those exclusion covenants but anything after about 1920 generally did. So most of East Sacramento, most of Curtis Park, a lot of North Sacramento and and the surrounding neighborhoods out across the river in West Sacramento and out in the county all had them, Pretty much universally and they became very important when redlining became utilized in the 1930s.

Cosmo Garvin Redlining was one of the tools used by the Federal Housing Administration, when it was building America’s mostly-white suburbs.

Jesus Hernandez One of the one of their major projects to rolling out this new deal financing was to establish where these loans can actually go. Because at that time one of the risks for assigning value was race. And it's actually written into the FHA underwriting guidelines back in the 30s.

Jesus Hernandez So The idea being that neighborhoods that were racially integrated. Were not suitable for financing because the presence of “subversive racial elements” as they phrase it. Would be detrimental to the loan process therefore giving the government a higher risk for default. And so these neighborhoods were actually excluded or "red lined". And this is where the term "redlining" came from.

Jesus Hernandez So in Sacramento this red line space back in the 30s was actually downtown, the West End because that's where the highest concentration of minorities was.

William Burg Redlining was a big factor in the 1930s. This is the method used by the Homeowners Loan Corporation to assign risk for these new Federal Housing Administration home loans. And one of the major factors was you know was this house in near an industrial area and so it was going to receive a lot of pollution or was the house in rough condition, but the single most important factor was the ethnic makeup of the neighborhood. An all-white neighborhood though was covenanted was the highest rating and the lowest credit risk. And then an all-white neighborhood that wasn't covenanted was the second highest and that it was it was potentially protected but not as protectable. And neighborhoods there were ethnic white are starting to get a few non-whites were the third lower or yellow. And then red was the lowest, lowest qualifier and a neighborhood like the West End which was predominantly nonwhite was all red lined, which means you could not get a home loan there. You could not get a loan from a bank. And because banks adopted the FHA guidelines for what constituted good or bad credit risk if the Homeowners Loan Corporation assessments had your's your's was a redlined neighborhood you couldn't borrow money. This meant that you couldn't get a loan to buy, you couldn't get a loan to reinvest. Unless you had your own capital to start with, you couldn't build new housing, you couldn't necessarily get a loan to improve properties. And that meant that the property values here were very low.

Jesus Hernandez When you have all of this packed into downtown and you have these patterns of mapping, redlining that the that our housing administration puts out to designate these places as places of no investment, places of high risk. Now you see downtown implode. And as our need for housing increases you've seen all those houses, those old Victorian homes split up into three or four different places to you know residences. Right. And when you have that many people in a house and no way to refinance. These houses begin to implode. Your downtown starts looking blighted because the lack of investment is there. And that lack of investment actually was a bullseye for the redevelopment.

William Burg Redevelopment was originally intended as a means to repair and improve this neighborhood in place. The original redevelopment act in 1948 said the you you want to fix up these neighborhoods but keep the people there.

William Burg What really started things off was in 1954 when it was called the businessman's version of redevelopment where you didn't have to keep the people in place you didn't have to to repair the neighborhood with the same amount of housing. And that became a mechanism and it was it was [00:15:59] in many ways Sacramento was one of the major catalysts for it. [2.7] But it's something you see all over the United States.

William Burg It was a means for business interests to take over these these poor areas. And at the time the only way to get rid of redlining because it redlining was still in use until the 70s, mind you. The only way to remove a neighborhood from from redlining was to remove the population entirely. You've all got to go.

Robin Datel And what's there now is a thoroughly redeveloped landscape of mostly offices, some commercial land use, a little strip of Old Sacramento but largely nonresidential.

Cosmo Garvin That’s Robin Datel, she teaches Geography at Sacramento State University. She had studied ethnic patterns in Sacramento, and how different groups wind up in different places.

Robin Datel And something like 8000 to 10,000 people were displaced as a result of redevelopment after the Second World War and freeway construction. Those those activities. And there was some sorting that happened when those people relocated elsewhere.

Cosmo Garvin In the 1950s, redevelopment levelled the West End, scattered thousands of residents, and in turn helped to establish many of patterns of racial segregation we see today.

Robin Datel And you already had some African-Americans living in in Oak Park and you already had some living in North Sacramento before that happened. And then those places became substantially more African-American as a result of that displacement of people out of the Old West End.

Cosmo Garvin Remember, Oak Park and some other neighborhoods were open to blacks, because they were built before Jim Crow and some of the racial exclusion laws.

Robin Datel And this is where the restrictive covenant piece comes in because Oak Park was just old enough (being our first suburb outside the grid) that the housing there was built without racially restrictive covenants. Meaning there was no legal restriction on people of color moving there. And so there were early examples of Latino and Asian and Black people living in Oak Park. And then just a little bit later when we get to the 1920s, this is when we start to get those covenants being attached to places like Curtis Park and Land Park as they get built up in the 20s 20s 30s and 40s. And ditto East Sacramento.

Robin Datel But so it's really the age of Oak Park that that opened it in a sense to receiving folks who were people of color basically.

Cosmo Garvin By the 1950s and 60s, those racial covenants had been declared illegal by the courts. But the patterns had been established, and then reinforced by racial anxieties and white flight to the suburbs.

Robin Datel People who started leaving Oak Park in the 19- mostly in the 1960s, many of them were property owners and they they left. Perhaps partly it was white flight. Partly it was those houses were small and many were built without garages. And they were responding to the building up of bigger newer you know more modern appliances in all of those subdivisions that were expanding southward.

Robin Datel And so the people that replaced them tended to be African Americans who didn't have enough money to purchase a house. So we tended to get more renters and fewer owners. But later as Meadowview for example gets built up in the 1970s and 1980s, we do have for example sons and daughters of people who lived in Oak Park, African-Americans, moving farther south so you can sort of see this expanding sector.

Cosmo Garvin Into the Meadowview?

Robin Datel Into the Meadowview, toward Meadowview, right.

Cosmo Garvin And once the explicitly discriminatory rules are made illegal, that created more openings for African American families and other groups to buy homes in the suburbs, to follow the American dream. Of course, illegal discrimination didn’t disappear. And particularly in housing, the legacy of segregation persists. Sometimes in really striking ways, as Jesus Hernandez observed after the real estate crash of the late 2000s.

Jesus Hernandez So one of the things that I did with this understanding of geography and real estate in Sacramento is to start mapping out. Outcomes of social problems that we have. And one of them was subprime lending. We had this housing crisis that was you know it was almost catastrophic for the nation. And so what I did is I started mapping where all of our subprime loans actually were. Who got who've got those loans and where did those foreclosures happen. Because of all this rapidly adjusting subprime loans.

Jesus Hernandez And you could see that these subprime loans follow the exact same pattern of residential segregation that we have today. It kind of reinforces it, because these are the people who lose their homes. These were people who were we initially excluded from money, from access to housing capital. And then we overinvest in them with the worst possible loans. So, of course when that's the only avenue that they have to finance a home and buy a home, they're going to be the first ones to lose it. And so you will see this happening throughout this North-South pattern of segregation. You will see that this is highest occurrence of subprime loans actually happened.

Cosmo Garvin It’s something Rothstein writes about in his book as well, he calls it “reverse redlining,” the excessive marketing of exploitive loans to African Americans.

Cosmo Garvin Why is the pattern still with us? What can we do about it?

Richard Rothstein Well, the policies of residential segregation are much more embedded and difficult to reverse than other segregation policies. When we abolished segregation on buses for example, the next day an African-American could sit anywhere he or she wanted on a bus. When we abolished segregation in restaurants, the next day anybody could go into a restaurant and be served. When we abolished segregation in schools, if the law had been enforced, African-Americans could go to their neighborhood school regardless of what the majority race in that school was.

Richard Rothstein But when we abolish, if we were to abolish segregation in housing which the government equally created, it's hard to figure out what happens next. Can African-Americans suddenly pick up and move to all white suburbs from which they've been excluded? No, that's very difficult. In fact it's virtually impossible.

Cosmo Garvin And because African American families were excluded from participating the in post-war housing boom, they were also excluded from building equity and wealth.

Richard Rothstein In in the mid 20th century when these massive subdivisions were created, places like Levittown and Panorama City and Lakewood and Daly City. When those subdivisions were created in the mid 19, 1940s, early 1950s. Those homes sold for about $8- $10000 apiece. At today's currency that's about $100,000. $100,000 then was about, in today's currency, was about twice the national median income. Working class families whether black or white could have afforded to buy those homes. Working class whites did. Working class African-Americans were forced to live in apartments and in central cities. Not permitted to move to suburbs.

Richard Rothstein Today those homes that sold for $100,000 to working class families 60 years ago, they sell now for $300, $400, $500,000. That's seven, eight times national median income. They're now unaffordable to working class families black or white. So although we passed the Fair Housing Law saying that OK African-Americans you can now move to these suburbs from which the federal government previously excluded you. It didn't do much to undo the past segregation because those homes are now unaffordable to working class families. Even middle class families, white and black, can no longer afford to move to single family homes in the suburbs.

Richard Rothstein Today nationwide African-American incomes are about 60 percent of white incomes. African-American wealth is only about 5 percent of white wealth on average. And that enormous difference: a 60 percent income ratio, a 5 percent wealth ratio is almost entirely attributable to unconstitutional federal housing policy in the mid 20th century. And we need to be creative in figuring out how to reverse that because it's effects endure today in this enormous wealth gap and in the concentration of African-Americans many African-Americans in cities and the suburbanization of the white population.

Cosmo Garvin Rothstein says that since government largely created these patterns of segregation, it’s appropriate for government to take steps to reverse them. I’ll talk about in the next episode.

Cosmo Garvin But first, I want to go back quickly to Seavey Circle. City leaders would like, one day, to dramatically redevelop the area. The City and the Sacramento Housing and Redevelopment Agency have been inching forward a plan to bulldoze the projects and build a new mixed income neighborhood there. It’s a pretty desirable area. The land park neighborhood is on one side, and the Mill at Broadway, housing focused on upscale millenials has gone up on the other side.

Cosmo Garvin Project backers say when redevelopment is done, there will be more affordable housing than exists on the site now, but blended in with so-called “market rate” housing. City council member Steve Hansen, arguing for the project told the Sacramento Bee, “We still have a segregated neighborhood next to one of the most prosperous communities in our (city).”

Cosmo Garvin But some neighbors don’t want more high density affordable housing in the neighborhood. The project will require relocating some 2000 residents, and some worry they won’t be able to come back. And so far, the project doesn’t have enough funding Nothing is going to change there for a while.

Cosmo Garvin But when I was finishing up my conversation with Jesus at the gate, the man who lived across the street approached us, curious. Nice guy, Roy Jersey is his name. We started to chat, and he told us his big concern about the project. He wants the gate to stay:

Roy Jersey Yeah we don’t want this to be like a where people can come down off of the 5th Street into here to make the loop. And we want, we like the dead end. We don’t want a lot of traffic down here.

Cosmo Garvin I asked him to clarify, was he concerned about car traffic, or foot traffic, or something else.

Roy Jersey All the above. You know. If uh, like you said, there’s some low income and that doesn’t make them bad people just you know, the less people know about this house I think the better. You know.

Cosmo Garvin Just for.

Roy Jersey Security.

Cosmo Garvin People bothering you.

Roy Jersey Not bothering us but just you know stealing stuff like that.

Cosmo Garvin And in fact, Roy says he’s had a couple of nice bikes stolen, he’s had people ring his doorbell, he thinks just to see if anyone is home. He says there was a gun fight in front of his house one time.

Cosmo Garvin That’s why the gate is there.


Cosmo Garvin And it hints at why it’s difficult to undo residential segregation, to build new affordable housing in wealthy areas, or create policies to encourage more inclusive neighborhoods. . More about that in the next episode.


La Shelle Dozier Clip We really have to look at where our families live. You know what are those census tracts, what are the poverty rates that they live in? And really start to work and encourage them to move to those areas that have areas of more opportunity and better schools and that's what that mobility counseling is all about.

Cosmo Garvin In Episode 3 I’ll talk about how residential segregation affects families, and what we can do about it. Things that we have tried, which failed, or were abandoned. And I’ll talk about an ambitious rule put forward by the Obama administration to combat residential segregation in cities like Sacramento, but which faces an uncertain future in the age of Trump.

Catherine Stifter You've been listening to The View From Here podcast.
Place and Privilege. This is Episode 2, Segregated Sacramento.

Produced by Cosmo Garvin and Sally Schilling.
Edited by Catherine Stifter.

Music by PRVLGS.

The View From Here is funded in part by The California Endowment.

You can find our eight-part series wherever you get your podcasts.

And at TheViewFromHere.org.

Where you can also find more stories, affordable housing resources and information about our live community storytelling events.

Follow us on social media with the hashtag #ViewOnHousing

This is The View From Here.

From Capital Public Radio.

I'm Catherine Stifter.

Thanks for listening.

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